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IngyNov10
Was there a Dragon banner of the English?
of the Anglo-Saxons who became the English, yes.Was in White, Golden or is there just not enough evidence?
an off White, an attempt at white, not Gold, as they couldn't produce White back then.- The Dragon on the Norman shield is clearly not white it is a creamy colour, even Stevie Wonder could see this, so they clearly could not produce White perfectly.
The English have revived the White Dragon flag of the Anglo-Saxons/English as the White dragon symbol of the indigenous English wether you like it or not.
I am also concerend at your agenda, it is only a flag and it concerns the English history and identity which is already under attack hugely from the authorities and media etc etc and hwere we have one of our own showing his PC self hatred side it seems, if he is English? though he could be of Norman stock, a Norman wannabe, Norman revisionist? Norman = the invaders - the enemy. - Replied on: 12:46pm 11-10-2008
- Ingy, This is pathetic. My view disagrees with yours, so I'm a 'PC Norman revisionist'. For gods sake all the other Eng Nats who've visited this site, bar one miserable little Welsh Labour supporter have agreed and appreciated my research. Even Octha below...who was very hard to please.
If this is your attitude to those who disagree with you I can see why they threw you off the CoSG website originally.
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OcthaOct21
Was there a Dragon banner of the English?
Yes there was.Was in White, Golden or is there just not enough evidence?
Probably both
The early English were not a very literate people. Therefore much of what has been passed down is word of mouth and now we are strcuturing our thoughts at a time when unity is required. Therefore I take back what I said about Ed Woods. Pity he didn't make the Somerset Dragon a lighter colour. But it still is a Germanic Dragon noe the less. So well done.
This site has got alot better. And is helping like other sites to strcuture our thought on our ethnicity. I have e mailed www.englandandenglishhistory.com and they are looking at re-writing their article on the White Dragon and I have said that they should include a link to this site.
Well done Mr White :-)
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E WoodsJul21
- Hello,
I was just reading the Cross St George Forum and came across a defamatory reference to myself dating from Sep 09, 2007. I would like to point out that none of what Octha said on the thread 'Celtic' Wesses / Cumbria / Northumberland !! about me is true. I 'm not trying anywhere on my website to convince the people of Somerset they are Celts or a nation of some sort. The Celtic Devon business is not my creation, I was commenting on it, and I don't see what that has got to do with the fyrd in Alfred's day. Devonians would've probably been a mixture of the two peoples then. In fact I specifically state that the Celtic Devon people are not nationalists and class themselves as English. The flag is not Welsh, it is based on the Wessex Wyvern and no-where in my website do I claim that Wessex never existed, I've no idea where Octha got that rubbish from, my argument is against the Wessex movement who want to carve up England.
I'd be obliged if you could pass that on to Octha.
By the way I am not a "self-loathing Celtophile" and I fully appreciate the importance of the West Saxons, kindly don't take what somebody else says about me for granted.
Regards,
E J Woods
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PaulJun9
Was there a Dragon banner of the English?
YesWas in White, Golden or is there just not enough evidence?
The tapestry depicts various colours so cannot be certain.- An excellent website - well done - that looks at all the evidence. There is no doubt that the Anglo-Saxons used dragon symbols, it appears on the Sutton Hoo helmet, other artifacts and the Bayeax tapestry. The Germanic poem Beowulf is also about dragons. The only debate is the colour but does it matter? I quite like the idea of the white dragon on red flag as they are the colours of our nation and the dragon is more of an English symbol than the St. George's Cross. St. George wasn't even English. If you want an English patron saint it should be St. Edmund, but then the original English were not Christian they were Pagan. As I'm not religious I feel at ease with adopting the white dragon flag.
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Me againMay20
Was there a Dragon banner of the English?
Of course notWas in White, Golden or is there just not enough evidence?
It didn't exist- Is this site still going... I thought this dragon stuff was slain long ago... still no evidence… we can trace banners/flags/emblems etc. all the way back to the Romans. St. Augustine came with some, the ancient Northumbrian Kings had them, King Arthur etc. Bede records their use as do the other chroniclers – even the Anglo-Saxon chronicles. But never a white dragon… speaks for itself!
- Replied on: 12:17am 05-21-2008
- You strange person!
I'd pretty much forgotten about you!
You're funny.
Stay in touch now.
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Thomas SmithMar22
- This site is damn good! i have a flagpole and i intend to buy this white dragon sir!! well done! good to see there are still some patriotic sons of England here! well done!
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Hereward the wakeOct29
Was there a Dragon banner of the English?
Yes of course! It's on the Bayeux tapesty you anti Angle-ish muppets!- The English dragon is pure and white with a bit of red thrown in. The latter representing the deliberately spilt blood of the anti English dirt!
see you jimmy?
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StevieAug26
Was there a Dragon banner of the English?
Yes - its nature and colour would have varied - now taken as WhiteWas in White, Golden or is there just not enough evidence?
Not a great deal of evidence - but mots now take it as White - see poem below!- SAXON WAR SONG
by Sir Walter Scott ( 1771-1832 )
Whet the bright steel,
Sons of the White Dragon!
Kindle the torch,
Daughter of Hengist!
The steel glimmers not for the carving of the banquet,
It is hard, broad and sharp pointed;
The torch goeth not to the bridal chamber,
It steams and glitters blue with sulpher.
Whet the steel, the raven croaks!
Light the torch, Zernebrock is yelling!
Whet the steel, sons of the Dragon!
Kindle the torch, daughter of Hengist!
The black clouds are low over the thane’s castle:
The eagle screams-he rides on their bosom.
Scream not, grey rider of the sable cloud,
Thy banquet is prepared!
The maidens of Valhalla look forth,
The race of Hengist will send them guests.
Shake your black tresses, maidens of Valhalla!
And strike your loud timbrels for joy!
Many a haughty step bends to your halls,
Many a helmed head.
Dark sits the evening upon the thane’s castle,
The black clouds gather round;
Soon shall they be red as the blood of the valiant!
The destroyer of forests shall shake his red crest against them;
He, the bright consumer of palaces,
Broad waves he his blazing banner,
Red, wide, and dusky,
Over the strife of the valiant;
His joy is the clashing swords and broken bucklers;
He loves to lick the hissing blood as it bursts warm from the wound!
All must perish!
The sword cleaveth the helmet;
The strong armour is pierced by the lance:
Fire devoureth the dwelling of princes,
Engines break down the fences of battle.
All must perish!
The race of Hengist is gone-
The name of Horsa is no more!
Shrink not then from your doom, sons of the sword!
Let your blades drink blood like wine;
Feast ye in the banquet of slaughter,
By the light of blazing halls!
Strong be your swords while your blood is warm.
And spare neither for pity nor fear,
For vengeance hath but an hour;
Strong hate itself shall expire!
I also must perish.
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AndrewAug13
Was there a Dragon banner of the English?
YesWas in White, Golden or is there just not enough evidence?
Goldon- Have you any pictures of the dragons used by later British Kings as mentioned
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Hereward the wakeJul30
Was there a Dragon banner of the English?
Of course!Was in White, Golden or is there just not enough evidence?
Golden- Some people I dunno! Got f'in' thick written all over 'em aint they?
The Bayeux tapestry has the English dragon woven into it you fuckin' plum!
It's irrelevant anyway 'cos we're English and proud mate whether you fuckin' like it or not! Bye bye now bye bye
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MickMay28
Was there a Dragon banner of the English?
yesWas in White, Golden or is there just not enough evidence?
Multi coloured or Golden- "Since then the original tapestry has been altered many hundreds of times ..."
Tom
It'd be interesting to see the hundreds of pieces of evidence proving that.
Nennius and Geoffrey of Monmouth,merely used the term,' white dregon',as a metaphor for the Anglo-Saxons.
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TomMay13
Was there a Dragon banner of the English?
Most definatelyWas in White, Golden or is there just not enough evidence?
Probably both and maybe other colours- To say that one of the 2 dragons depicted on the final battle scene may be the Fighting man is ridiculas. You only have to look at it to see that it plainly isn't. The other point I would make is that the first accurate copies if the tapestry were made at the beginning of the 1800's. Since then the original tapestry has been altered many hundreds of times - the vast majority of which have been in the final battle scene. If it has been altered that many times in 200 years, how many times in the previous 800. I would say it is nigh on impossible to use it as a primary source. Many times through history and upto the present day the English have been symbolised by a White Dragon while the golden dragon seems to have been left behind a milenia agon and instead adopted by Wessex. Enough said.
- Replied on: 10:59am 05-13-2007
- Hello Tom, Welcome to EnglishDragon.
"To say that one of the 2 dragons depicted on the final battle scene may be the Fighting man is ridiculas."
Firstly, no-one knows what Fighting Man looked like. So how can you say it's not it? I have searched for referenced to it and found nothing. Since there appears to be no explanation as to what the two differing flags are - one could assume that one is Fighting Man. I see you have no explanation other than your co-producer saying that the seamstress ran out of white! Then of course as you say, the tapestry has been altered many times....
"Many times in history the English have been symbolised by a White Dragon."
Show me. I've asked you to do this many times Tom. I've even asked John Green - but not once have you managed to do so. Your spurious claims that the Wessex Dragon was White is farcical. You have no evidence. The Wessex Dragon was used by at least four kings post-conquest(Richard I and Edward III most notably). It was used up until the 15th Century, when Henry VIII then used the Welsh red.
Since the Tapestry is not a reliable source - why do you cite it for evidence of the White!
As per usual - you make many claims with absolutely no evidence to back it up.
I refer you to a comment you made once
".... Similarly, gold dragons are much harder to market and merchandise and again would not appeal as much as a white one."
You are bending history and making spurious claims on the basis of marketing.
Please read Perrin and Giles-Scott. Neither refer to a White Dragon.
Now - should I start deleting your comments as you did mine? Enough Said.
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DaveMay4
- Here is a brief summary of what Perrin in British Flags and Giles- Scott in The Romance of Heraldry have written about the dragon.
A dragon was the Standard of a Roman cohort which was a tenth of a legion. After the Romans left Britain it was used by both the Britons and the Saxons. A golden dragon was the principal war standard of the Saxons of Wessex, and was carried by them at the battle of Burford in 752. In the eleventh century battles the king positioned himself between his personal standard, which was the rallying point and the dragon standard which was carried by a standard bearer chosen for his strength and prowess. After the battle of Hastings the dragon standard was adopted by the Normans. No record of its use in Scotland after the battle of the Standard in 1138,where it was borne as the Scottish royal standard. A dragon standard was taken on the Third Crusade by Richard I in 1191. A dragon was borne by the English army at the battle of Lewes in 1216 and later Henry III had a dragon standard made to be placed in the re-built Abbey at Westminster. Used by Edward I, Edward III at the battle of Crécy 1346, Henry V at the battle of Agincourt 1415, and at the battle of Bosworth in 1485, after which it was carried in state to St Paul's Cathedral. Henry VII displayed the red dragon of Cadwallader, from whom he claimed descent, on the Tudor colours of white and green. Until this time it was probably golden. The supporters of the English royal arms were a lion and a dragon, but the latter was replaced by a unicorn for Scotland by the Stuarts. The dragon reappeared briefly as a supporter of the arms of the Commonwealth under Cromwell.
David Prothero
http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/gb-wales.html
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M AndersonMay3
Was there a Dragon banner of the English?
Yes. It can be seen on the Bayeux tapestry.- I have the dragon flag proudly hanging on my wall. The cross of st george is the norman flag sanctioned by the pope who also told William the bastard to invade England.
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DaiGeorgeMay1
Was there a Dragon banner of the English?
No - it was of the SaxonsWas in White, Golden or is there just not enough evidence?
White- Apologies if you have already seen it:
Part 2
In a world with few certainties, the White Dragon Flag of the English people
<snipped cut and pasted material from a certain website> - Replied on: 2:25pm 05-13-2007
- Plagiarised directly from the people who are selling the White Dragon flag. Who made this statement on another forum:
".... Similarly, gold dragons are much harder to market and merchandise and again would not appeal as much as a white one."
They made the dragon white as it was 'easier to market'.
Sorry, but you'll need to do a little better than this. All of the 'evidence' provided by the EFS is farcical at best. The evidence is just not there. What colour are the flags at Hastings? By 1066, the Anglo-Saxons were a unified Englisg people. Bede in the 8th century was calling them the 'English' people.
You comments about the 'Saxons' having a dragon flag is a little odd. Do you mean the South, East or West Saxons? Of course you realise the irony in your statement? The Saxons, along with the Angles, Frisians and Jutes WERE collectively the English....